Talk:Yad Vashem

Palestinian village?

I have seen claims circulating on social media that Yad Vashem was supposedly built on top of the remains of a depopulated Palestinian village, but searches on Google reveal nothing. Maybe they are referring to Deir Yassin, but that was located to the south of Yad Vashem, not beneath it. Any truth to this claim or is it simply misinfo? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 13:04, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Yeah it was deff a genocide 198.105.46.252 (talk) 22:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

+sculptor of "The Eternal Flame"

Please, supplement

> Sculpture by Kosso Eloul, 1960, bronze >

to

The eternal flame

Welt-der-Form (talk) 18:50, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ~ Eejit43 (talk) 05:06, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

References

Notable visitors?

Seems like unencyclopedic trivia to me. What other articles about places have visitors sections? Clarityfiend (talk) 06:53, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

It is unencyclopedic, and should be removed or redone. You could try a really bold edit and remove the entire section, but a lot of people have worked on it, and there are a lot of references, so I'm guessing there would be pushback. For starters, we are an online encyclopedia, not a powerpoint slideshow with bullet-point slides; and this article is not a list article, so all the bullet itsms should be converted to prose. Probably one reason it's a bullet list, is that there is no significant coverage of these visits as a collective topic, and nothing but passing mentions of individual visitors in the news of the day, when this or that head of state is on site. (And MOS:FLAGICON may apply as well). WP:DUEWEIGHT may be another concern, as these names are not the first thing that comes up.

I checked titles and snippets of the first 100 results at Google books, and no visitors were mentioned. In Google scholar, of the top ten results, #3 had the word 'visitor' in it: Attitudes Of Israeli Visitors Tovvards the Holocaust Remembrance Site of Yad Vashem, but it is a serious, academic article, and not about trivia. This article would be more appropriate as a resource in a section about "#Visitors reactions" (not the trivia honeypot "#Notable visitors") and would be a more worthwhile, more interesting, and more compliant with editing guidelines than the current section.

A very few visits do have historical importance, such as the 1973 multi-day visit by West German Chancellor willy Brandt ((NY Times (1973)), and I find it beyond ironic that of all the trivia included in that section, perhaps the most important visit of all is not covered anywhere in the article, nor even a lonely bullet item lost among the others in that section, though it was clearly of encyclopedic, even historic significance.

My preference would be to remove the section, retain a very few names (Sadat, J-P II) and redo the content as prose, and either create a new section mentioning them, and add Brandt and scholarly articles such as the one on Israeli reactions. Mathglot (talk) 21:21, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Just wanted to add, that one compromise approach, which would be to create a new article, List of notable visitors to Yad Vashem, and move everything there. This would deal with both the WP:UNDUE WEIGHT issue here, as well as the TRIVIA problem at the same time. I still think there might be a side issue of what the WP:LISTCRITERIA would be at the new article, but I, for one, wouldn't worry too much about what happens at the list article, and could concentrate more on keeping the main article up to standards. Mathglot (talk) 21:28, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

virtual words

The name "Yad Vashem" is taken from a verse in the Book of Isaiah (56:5): "[To] them will I give in my house and within my walls a [memorial] and a [name], better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting [name], that shall not be cut off [from memory]."

Customarily, brackets mark words that are implied but not present in the source. If that is so for all of these, one my question how the name Yad Vashem was taken from this verse! –Tamfang (talk) 01:25, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 November 2023

Change "Yom HaShoah, vommemoration day in Israel" to "Yom HaShoah, commemoration day in Israel." Minor typo should be fixed please and thank you. 21Helios12 (talk) 04:20, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

 Done Fixed. Thank you for taking the time to request this typo be corrected. —Sirdog (talk) 04:33, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 May 2024

Please make the following change to the article:

−

this reduces the indepdence

+

this reduces the independence

StativStakitKasket (talk) 09:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Done. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:53, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Zeroooo, please restore the content you deleted

No opinions were stated, just facts which anyone can easily verify by visiting the Yad Vashem museum and Web page. Emesz (talk) 16:57, 15 February 2025 (UTC)

@Emesz: Sources have to be given in the article, not somewhere else. And there is also the issue of notability. There are lots of people who are not honored by Vad Vashem but there has to be a reason for mentioning them here. One reason would be that the omission is treated as important by a reliable source. Bernadotte is not a righteous of the nations but there is even a display at the museum for him with one of the white buses. As for opinions, of course "Emphasis on this vs. ingenuity, numbers saved, etc. is troubling." is obviously an opinion. In total, your additions were unacceptable. Zero^talk 03:17, 16 February 2025 (UTC)

Tank you.

I wrote that Bernadotte was not "recognized" by Yad Vashem, despite the many Jews and others he saved by the Himmler negotiations. The fact that there may be a sign about the white busses is a totally different matter. He is not "notable"? All those "recognized" who saved one Jew are? Bernadotte and deDecker were in my edit not to emphasize their great contributions which would belong on their wikipedia page, but to show that Yad Vashem is often driven by politics and is frequently not truthful - i.e. there is a fundamental and controversy. Emesz (talk) 14:34, 16 February 2025 (UTC)

Regarding Ambassador deDecker. Honest Holocaust historian Prof. David Kranzler wrote in "The Grand Escape from Lithuania to Japan" (The Jewish Observer, June 2000) that deDecker got the ball rolling with the visas to Curacao after yeshiva student Nathan Gutwirth convinced him to change the verbiage. Lawyers Nathan and Alyza Lewin, son and granddaughter of Isaac and Pessy Lewin, claim that it was Pessy who convinced deDecker (search for "How my mother's chutzpah helped deDecker, Zwartendijk &Sugihara save many Jews, Nathan & Alyza Lewin". In either case, deDecker deserves most "recognition" for starting the process, which led to saving many Jews in Kovno, including the Mir Yeshiva. I have no explanation why Yad Vashem declined at least one request I know of for recognition and assume the Lewins asked for his "recognition" out of gratitude. I could have listed many other severe controversies about Yad Vashem. For example. removing from the exhibit photo of the Mufti with Hitler - presenting Kasztner as a great rescue hero without mentioning that many consider him to have sold out Hungary's Jews to the Nazis and that in 1946 he went from Palestine to Nurenberg to save leading Nazis from the gallows, including his friend Kurt Becher - that there is a tiny sign about Raoul Wallenberg and about 2 typed pages in a drawer without any mention of the Bergson Group and team at the US Treasury, which resulted in establishment of the War Refugee Board which asked Wallenberg asked to go to Budapest etc. I noted that Yad Vashem is proud to be the number two Jerusalem tourist spot and used "proud" since someone I know and trust complained to the MK Ophir Pines about many historical distortions at Yad Vashem. Ophir showed the response by the Yad Vashem manager or directorand it stated that they are prouf being the number two tourist spot. . Somewhat later I visited Yad Vashem and saw that nothing changed. Etc. Etc. I presume that you want things about the Shoah Yad Vashem etc. to be absolutely true, uncensored and apolitical in Israel. I do! Emesz (talk) 15:39, 16 February 2025 (UTC)

You have a serious misconception about how Wikipedia works. It is not a place for you to display your opinions and personal knowledge. Your "proud" is a perfect example — it doesn't matter at all that you know it from some personal experience; if it isn't clearly stated in a reliable published source then we can't have it. No exceptions! I actually agree with you that there is a lot of politics in the way YV conducts its business, but for that to be in the article you have to find a reliable published source for it. Your opinion and mine don't matter a damn here. Incidentally, you seem to not know that Kasztner testified for Becher because the Jewish Agency asked him to. I'm very surprised to see that our article on him doesn't mention that. Zero^talk 23:59, 16 February 2025 (UTC)

Maybe you are right that the "proud" addition can't be used, although true, due to Wikipedia rules.

Whereas I didn't explicitly reference reliable proof that deDecker, Bernadotte, Musys were not "recognized" anyone can go to the Yad Vashem "Righteous" database and check.

You would have done something constructive by suggesting I add references to the database respective page.

I didn't mention Kasztner etc. since inasmuch as possible I don't wish to wash Israel's dirty laundry in public especially this critical time.

I could have noted that the Mufti photo with Hitler was removed for political purposes, falsification of the Bratislava Working Group Europa Plan negotiations (YVS stating it failed since it was only a Nazi trick - the truth is that none of the Jewish, Zionist organizations were willing to provide the 10% down payment) etc. etc. etc. Emesz (talk) 09:56, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

Would be important to know how Kasztner got a large and very positive display at YVS. I strongly suspect it was PROTEKCIA by his buddy Tommy Lapid who was Chairman of the YVS Advisory Committee etc. They worked together at the Hungarian newspaper in Israel with Lapid as the junior journalist.

Of course I know how Kasztner got to Nurenberg and that an American military lawyer in Nuremberg wrote they are all glad Kasztner returned to Palestine since he was always in POW camps looking for more Nazis to rescue...

AS Abba Eban said "THere is no business like the Shoa Business Emesz (talk) 10:15, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

@Zero0000 wrote "Swedish Count Folke Bernadotte: remove false claim" When people state that Yad Vashem "recognizes" some it generally means that the "Righteous" title is awarded. Bernadotte was not "recognized".

Neithr were the Musys (father *& son). Their great heroic deeds saved large number of Jews and they putmainste their lives in danger driving to Berlin to old talks with Himmler, due to frequent bombing of the German highways. One reference is

When you erased my edit the remark abut Yad Vashem not presenting the crimes of some high level free world Jewish, mainstream Zionist leaders and their organizations sabotaging important rescue activism and related issues. You could have suggested that I provide references - instead of deleting all content I wrote, including the street by the Israel Museum, National Library, Knesset named for Stephen Wise: the main saboteur of rescue.

I don't understand why you deleted my addition to The Accomplices page in which I noted that the play is now showing in Jerusalem and remarked that the title is puzzling since the main characters, Kook and Wise, were in no way accomplices. That leads to the question who was whose accomplice.

I excepect that you assure all the things you deleted are restored Emesz (talk) 09:29, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

"No business like Shoah business" is usually attributed to Claude Lanzmann. Meanwhile, regarding Wikipedia it seems that you just aren't getting it. Zero^talk 13:14, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

I am not getting it? People often accuse others of their own failings.

Abba Eban:

The Guardian: "Indeed it was a former Israeli foreign minister, Abba Eban, who first quipped that 'There's no business like Shoah business.'"

theguardian.com

Literary Review: "Little wonder that Holocaust historians now quote the former Israeli foreign minister Abba Eban's mordant quip that 'There's no business like Shoah business.'"

I have no interest to argue with you about it.

Tried to politely and patiently interact with you.

You don't seem to understand that your actions were anything but constructive..

As I noted earlier, if you were interested in clarifying things, having things referenced you could and should have suggested what you feel ought to be changed. Going on a binge of destruction is something I don't understand!

Further interaction would not be productive. 2A00:A041:E270:2300:5C8D:F569:456D:E4B6 (talk) 15:55, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

It could be Eban who said it first, but nobody seems to have an actual source. The earliest mention I found was in 1977 attributed to "a Jewish colleague". There is a tendency for people to attribute things to the first place they heard them, which isn't always the first ever. Zero^talk 12:35, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

Am not concerned who first said NO BUSINESS LIKE THE SHOAH BUSINESS, but the sarcastic, witty statement has much truth to it. As you saw, I found 2 sources claiming it was Abba Eban, but you are right that there may be misattributions. It is reasnable that it was A. E. since (a) e was witty, (b) had great competence in English, (c) spend much time in New York City and very like heard the NO BUSINESS LIKE SHOW BUSINESS phase. In any case, for me this not important.

Regarding the articles you reverted or had objections about (Yad Vashem, Brenadotte, Hillel Kook, The Apprentices, Yitzchak Sternbuch) hope we can work together in a positive spirit to improve what I contributed.

You are right that in some places I failed to provide references to the Yad Vashem article. I have the references and can add them. Anything else? I welcome constructive criticism and am upset if it is not forthcoming. Such input improves things. While studying for MS before going for PhD I got an A on a paper without comments and was not amused...

You remarked that the Hillel Kook article is mostly without references. I'll gladly try to add them if I agree with the text if you point to specific sentence, paragraphs.

What do you think needs to in my addition to the Bernadotte and The Accomplices article? In the latter my remark about the confusing title is is not based on references, but something which needs to be stated. You may not agree. I think that articles should be more then just a patchwork of borrowed segments from references. Of course within limits.

At a personal level, my only motivation on this topic (the Shoah) is that things be truthful, apolitical, uncensored... especially on the important on the topic of Rescue and its Sabotage by Jews, Jewish leaders and to one day have sincere collective soul searching on this, which Yad Vashem and its likes prevent. Emesz (talk) 19:35, 18 February 2025 (UTC)

This is not an article about "rescue and its sabotage by Jews". It is an article about an organization, and everything in it has to be about the organization. Zero^talk 02:52, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Really?

Yad Vashem falsifying history by not "recognizing" (as "Righteous") important rescuers like deDecker, the Musys, Bernadotte, etc. - not presenting in their display case (museum) the main Jewish obstructors of rescue - removing photo of the Mufti with Hitler - etc. - is not about Yad Vashem? Emesz (talk) 07:21, 19 February 2025 (UTC)